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bring you the latest in science to see. the huge area covered. can. you think of the. glowing welcome to crosstalk i'm peter lavelle the color of terrorism as norway comes to terms with its most horrific attack on its soil since the second world war a plethora of questions demand answers how could this is the plan been executed under the radar of the authorities and has the west focused too much on islamic groups instead of homegrown extremists and terrorists.

to cross talk the rise of far right nationalism i'm joined by my guest in london. he's chair of the muslim safety forum and stephen gosh he is spokesperson for stop islamization of europe all right gentlemen this is cross type that means you can jump in anytime you want but first let's see how the oslo attacks may influence political discourse in europe. hardly a tragedy that struck norway on friday has become yet another grim reminder of the growing threat of far right extremists and a problem long since recognized unresolved and europe with the body count still in progress authorities and politicians in europe are left to re-evaluate the spread of domestic radicalism and possibly recast the profile of a modern day terrorist little sense of grief over such a high death toll as a result of the bombing of a federal building in los low and the shooting rampage at

a labor party youth camp i think we have a. story or pencil dividing lines. in order to receive it. we can be big to the admission of the need to ask hard questions particularly how one man was able to burn such destruction without being stopped will want to make sure that we like all those any lessons there are to learn about how to be more secure against horrific outrages like this indeed lessons need to be learned to identify terrorist threats such as the charge and there is bearing braybrook long before they have his fifteen hundred word manifesto posted hours before the carnage denounced the government's failure to protect norway from islamic influence nurtured and europe's growing climate of hatred that comprises a mix of anti immigrant sentiments racism and economic recession brave exposition mirrors a civilised political debate about multiculturalism across europe. this is not the

cultural approach to simply leave. and the help you got each other his approach his field onto the field the attacks have unveiled questions that strike a chord with politicians across the entire political spectrum what does it need to be european tolerant and open the answers to these questions until very different outcomes the most extreme of which was played out in oslo question but now hans public opinion and policy makers since the nine eleven attacks against the us the western world has focused his attention and resources on what are deems a security threats from these law mc world so will the it's half an hour slow carried out meticulously by right wing christian prompt the worst you could knowledge the new face of a modern day terrorist suspect. mustn't charnel for class. and i'd like to start with you in london do you how do you look at this horrific

attack in our shows this is extreme extension of the type of rhetoric that we hear from right wing political parties in europe this gentleman before he pulled off this horrific. attack used the language that you can hear very often across europe about you know about immigrants immigration about islam about the koran except for so here's a man that spoke in extreme terms inactive even more extreme yes absolutely and let me add my condolences and heartfelt sorrow for what did take place i mean this barbaric acts of terrorism that took place is an extension of the muslim islamophobia trend that is sweeping europe and it is like you mentioned extreme end of that which and unfortunately i think i do agree with a lot of what your reporter said earlier which is that

a disproportionate amount of resources and time has been allocated in dealing with one strand of terrorism at the expense of others we have europol and others who have indicated for years way back from two thousand and six that the threat from extremism and that terrorism form is something real and should be taken seriously ok stephen what do you think about this attack here because again this is norwegian man i mean he was part of a lot of these different groups that were paying european that were very anti immigration anti muslim and here's a step further he stepped way over the line in our so well there's a difference between the rhetoric that we hear across europe and the little bit of the an inch further where you get this kind of attack. well first of all like to join my fellow guest in offering my condolences and commiserations to the families of the victims and also norway itself it's a complete disgusting act the man perpetrated you get your

question and i actually think this man is a one off he's reported as being an anti islam and but it's notable that the target that he chose was wasn't muslims it wasn't mosques or anything like that it was indeed the ruling party of norway the rhetoric that he espoused. a myriad some of the language that he used against islamist environment but he is diametrically opposed to stop islamization of europe stack ticks and methods and strategies because we have always been a peaceful organization we've always had demonstrations conferences and i've written articles. and such events are always authorized and okayed by the police the north or it is here we are a peaceful organization and this man is in my view a one off i live in the north of england and recently we had

a guy does not make this point because. he is an exception that proves the rule really in north of england not far from where i live we had a similar event of mass murder and nobody knows what the motivations were for the horrific attacks this man is reported to have been an anti islamist we have no record of him joining our group told he was summarily thrown out of the facebook group which is the the fleetest contact that he had with us. so if he was found out that he had not stealing from your nazi links he was thrown off because we're fundamentally anti totalitarian as a group we oppose not only is our army here for communism and nazis are ok as are going to be in there you want to require that i have is like yeah i mean. i think stephen but what he says is me he's half right which is that tactics are different the rhetoric is the same this man is in his own words he is an anti muslim you know

he hates muslims and the reason he chose his government and these young people on a holiday island is because he sees them as the people who failed to protect norwegian society from this influence of islam in his own eyes and his links to the far right extremist organizations like the english defense league is well documented and we had last night the leader of the english defense league actually issued a threat on live on national television saying that you know in five years you can expect similar attacks in the in the u.k. so the link there is very very strong ideology ideology clearly they come from the same place yes that tactic this individual decided to take was different however he's not alone he's already told the police that you know there's fifteen to eighty people there who are ready to do what he's done he's declaring himself have been belong to the nice templars you know where we're going back into the history here

he's bringing up. the rhetoric of the crusades so this man is not acting alone his not deranged he's not a lunatic he knows exactly what he's doing and he did it in a car collected and very very well organized way how on earth can this be done the planning there was for years without being detected from the security services or anyone else simply the answer is simply because this propose. amount of time has been placed on looking at one strand of terrorism and the expense of the other what do you think about that stephen because you know it's we could call this blog on blonde terrorism here because it will talk a little bit later about the dispersant will focus on islam in europe when it comes to terrorism which actually i did some research it's miniscule can compared to other terrorist acts committed by nationalist groups in europe but what about that i mean you know if you look at the media the first thing you hear was oh it's

a the islamic attack on europe and then they shifted it ok and then all the sudden it became a fundamentalist i mean even the rhetoric and how we talk about these things is so completely different because of a skin color of a religion and words some people come from in the world. well first of all i'd like to say the react the immediate reaction shows that. was the exception that proves the rule the automatic assumption was that it was muslim terrorism because that is the norm for our present. so it was like. i know you did i didn't interrupt you and that i will have my story on your own person statement. but basically. i don't believe he has any links at all to any right wing groups and the language i agree with the fellow guest the language actually has to change the left wing and right wing far right

far left it is meaningless now people are more sophisticated in that we go people from a broad spectrum of political persuasions on our demonstrations are not left wing not right wing they perceive a threat to their culture and identity and they come out and demonstrate against it . you know this knights templar thing i think it's complete boming i don't believe exist it's something that historically i am an english nationalist i'm a fervent english nationalist and i are i know of the groups that are involved with english nationalism in this knights templar to me is a complete fabrication so i don't believe it is got any links at all with any english nationalists but the thing i was going to say is i'm glad you want to jump in there before we go to the break go ahead here i mean what stephen fails to recognize and this is problematic is since nine eleven there has been a concerted and well organized orchestrated campaign from neo conservative islamophobia groups think tanks in quatrain anything that happens in the world as

you know it's a form of islam is that all of muslims etc etc that's why you had when this horrific act took place that's why you had experts one after the other coming in and saying things like i would this house. the whole marks of al qaeda this is an islamist at sais i want to jump in here we're going to go to break the sound of that short break we'll continue our discussion on the oslo tragedy stay with our feet. keep. years ago in the largest country in. certain places of the.

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welcome back because not enough people about to remind you we're talking about extremism in europe. q. ok as i want to go back in a comment that you made before going to the break about how the media and al qaeda it's quite interesting that in the fifteen hundred page manifesto that was left behind there was an enormous amount of admiration actually for al qaeda because of its tactics i mean that is going to be one of the greatest irony is that all this considering that media and many politicians including the united states instantly said this is al qaeda or al qaeda like operation this is this telling us they were missing this is a huge security lapse and on the part of western governments because it's their own homegrown people that are committing most of these acts of terrorism. yeah i mean look before i answer that if i can finish the point i was trying to make earlier even today you would find mainstream media do not call what took place in norway

a terrorism act they don't report it as a terrorist act you know they call it everything but terrorists acts that's one thing second thing is like we heard our prime minister and he doesn't use the word terrorism this man's admiration for terrorism is playing if he using his own words so admire another terrorist organization and here we are denying that this man is have his committee it is anything but an act of terrorism and i think this rhetoric that the media has you know over over the last ten years been got aerated in moscow what we need to do is we need to work on facts you know if we are solely believe in one society many cultures year where we are one society but we allow for many cultures and people to have the individual freedoms human rights to do as they please within the boundaries of the law but for us this and sustain this and maintain this we have to operate honest and interact with integrity and

unfortunately a lot of our commentators politicians and media do not meet those requirements. are just emily it is a fact it is a fact in media that there we went from a terrorist attack to a lunatic a nutcase i'm a christian fundamentalist i mean it should be but the act is no different than a narrative carol that would be you know nine eleven oklahoma city seven seven in london i mean it's the same thing but it's a fundamental salissa nut case. well i agree entirely with that site. has the view and this. is every bit as much an enemy of democracy as those who bombed the london buses and chub and that's not only muslims it also includes irish fascists who bombed london island back in the eighty's so you know this is a strategy which is a terrorist strategy and please the points be made because i totally agree this was a an act of terrorism the thing about other to get back to the point about.

brave and. what was said regarding the fact that the leader of the d.l. on the program. on british television last night i was invited to speak on that program and i wish to make a point made the point that he was a one off he isn't. he doesn't resemble or is not representative of the groups that are demonstrating or and here's the list if you like he's a he's a one off so i don't think this kind of a any more of these kinds of actions. other than maybe a story statement we're launching this is not just another did here you're just this that doesn't make one point i think what we will see we will see the kind of actions that peter tatchell talk against the church of england synod where he invaded and i think we're going to see maybe mosques person around it invaded or

muslim gatherings being disrupted that may happen so that i don't know if i mean i don't i don't believe i don't really you know again i'm going to see any. can carry on and i had so i mean you were just going to you were just going to say there was a going to be an act of terrorism we have five mosques that has been sent powder wipe out a substance that the police are treating very very seriously we have mosques that are daily vandalize we have muslims that have been killed we have an elderly man who was killed at a bus simply because he was a muslim and with i did use the language of you muslim go back home look see i did say really really very seriously this we have what we have our senior is calling a senior police officer as well and you are saying terrorist he was out on the right wing is very very likely ok this is the man who. was well received. i did

a freedom of information request the crown plaza so prosecution service about that murder at the bus stop and asked why it wasn't treated as a racist attack as it was in the first place and the reason was it because it wasn't right wing nationalist as you like to call them who perpetrated that murder it was a group of local youths had nothing to do with any right wing groups a tour and the crown prosecution service actually out for skated all the requests i may but in the end they said they were going going to give me no information because it. was it was concerned with the case notes and they weren't subjects people like people like the leader of the e.t.l. they admire i mean he wasn't on national television green with many of the messages out of the fifteen hundred words he only disagreed with one thing which was the terrorist act itself where he agreed with everything else the rhetoric was there and then before he finished he categorically issued a threat sane in five years' time this is going to happen unless you wake up unless

you wake up again as though this is the last thing is i want to say this person is no known when he was a little inishmaan boy see evolution is not what this. for this person interrupt he told the norwegian police there's another to sell ok he's put in his own manifesto and he's mentioned that a norwegian police already and he's worked with english defense league there are seven million was a sleaze trial in rwanda that's an important point stephen you can reply to that please go ahead are i said to serve on news papers and television that i don't believe that this sort of thing is going to happen again the underlying threat that you know if we're not listened to you going to see more terrorist attacks i just think sir i believe it's a load of rubbish we're not going to see this kind of thing happen in england we're not going to see it happening across europe this man was a one off nobody will ever get to know what his motivations were but i will say this about that i'm pleased that his hearing is being held in secret because we've

been trying for years to get to the place of islam in western democracy discussed and all we've been called a fascist and a phobic race is ok because there isn't just notice that we go to only the so and so this man for forfeited his rights by this. act of mass murder i don't want to hear is views because he is a murderer he focused even steven he laughed his usual line here is you know these views are he left fifteen hundred pages of mine i thought i'd like to go to you when the police when the police apprehended him they called him by his name they knew who he was. exactly how this is something i think is very interesting i mean they know the music he was around he knew it is views were but he bought six tons of fertilizer that's a huge security less can you imagine someone with a name buying six sun fertilizer there will be

a raid immediately and this is the point i was making earlier i wasn't to sell them off. you when you do you know allocate your resources disproportionately the you will make these big clearing mistakes ok then this is going to another firing it for us and he thought he will. but that's my point zero point years second point is very very naive for steven and very very dangerous and you know we all hope there are no more terrorism acts but it's very very naive to think that this was a one off and it's not likely to happen if you look at the right wing and see islamic. rhetoric in europe it is far higher than the u.k. for sure we have countries in the u.k. countries in europe who are banning certain acts of islam so they've banned the minaret they've banned the wearing of the grail all of these things are happening it's there in the u.k. it's not that bad at the moment there you go he says it's good to see it now we

knew impinge on people's human rights and what are you talking about a liberal democracy you talk about democracy you could not listen to even read what i was doing or implied that i had even replied here that's a very good point because you look at saudi arabia which is the center of islam that's where america is all of the religions are banned and yet the western governments germany. i was very interesting i mean you would not be interrupting you stephen. we germany's just so two hundred tanks to. saudi arabia and we've sold jet fighters there dubiously now you can bet your life not one of those tanks will find its way to afghanistan to fight the taliban nor will it will they find their way into iraq to fight al qaida and the taliban. military her prefer search perverse forms of islam is not the jewel to wheedle us to be attacked is to me was like all of do with

a woman's decision to wear certain type of clothing what on earth are you. trying to run. and how do you know you guys are you going towards your salary is a lie we're very lucky because i decided to ask you to give you the last word in the program and in the near figs i where do you think the multiculturalism discussion is going to go now in europe after this horrific event. i think people with common sense will see that we need to be one society with many cultures and we need to be on the front four which is positive building relationships understanding each other i think the rhetoric of what stephen represents and his organization represents is is the cause of the things that we have just like it is for any religion any ideology extremists you know we need to shun them we need to marginalize them and unfortunately stephen represents those kind of views so the way forward is that we are working on our farm for bill positive relationship and recognize that we are one society with many cultural case even you will require

that before we end well mama who is the original terrorist he was the one who coined the phrase which is in the koran which is taught in every mosque throughout the world muslims make war on the co far who dwell around you need say no nor he was the original terrorist he was the original now say who clones the arabian peninsula of all jews all right gentlemen there was a very heated debate here many thanks to my guest today in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember past articles. and. stories. if you want to.

rachel martin here broadcasting live from washington d.c. coming up today on the big picture. we'll. bring you the latest in science and technology from the realms. we've gone to the future of coverage.

a.b.c. . yes. thank you.